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Post by bruce on Mar 12, 2018 19:45:17 GMT
With Napoleon in a class by himself, I am trying to figure out which Russian commanders were most likely to give him a challenge. I have assumed Blucher for Prussia, Wellington is obvious for Britain. Archduke Charles of Autria gave Napoleon his toughest battles when France was at the height of its power. But the Russian cast of characters leaves me uncertain. Who do you think was the best? Bruce
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Post by Sho on Mar 13, 2018 14:28:24 GMT
Definitely Barclay de Tolly.
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Post by davidsh on Mar 14, 2018 19:19:26 GMT
A good question Bruce. I guess no one particular general stands out - not least because main commanders kept on being replaced by an interfering Tsar. Kutuzov, then Bennigsen, then Barclay, Kutuzov again, then Barclay again. Although never in overall command, Bagration would surely feature, with Raevsky always a tough nut to crack. Again, although never in overall command, I would however propose Docturov - involved in every campaign and a steady commander - almost the Russian Davout.
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Post by bruce on Mar 15, 2018 12:29:38 GMT
Ah this is quite helpful. Russia is always a bit of an unknown to me. I have not done enough reading and as I paint my Russian army, I am realizing that this lack of knowledge leaves them with less character and personality for me.
Is there a book or two which best captures the main Russian characters? There is so much on Napoleon and Wellington, but Engliish language books on other countries seem scarce. Bruce
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Post by davidsh on Mar 15, 2018 16:52:16 GMT
A very good general book is Russia Against Napoleon by Dominic Lieven - a great historian on Russia. A more specific book is Borodino and the War of 1812 by Christopher Duffy. The latter was published in 1972 (I bought it that year!) but is still in print - paperback version available cheaply on Amazon.
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Post by bruce on Mar 15, 2018 19:23:48 GMT
Excellent! I just found the Lieven book at my local library, much thanks, David. I also read a glowing review of it on line in the New York Times from 2010. There are not many English language books on this topic, but this apparently fits the bill! Bruce
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Post by davidsh on Mar 15, 2018 21:18:12 GMT
Great! Have a good read. Saves reading War and Peace :-)
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Post by profjohn on Mar 18, 2018 21:41:26 GMT
Bagration for me every time - élan and tenacity combined in an unusual combination. I note the previous post but I was going to say read War and Peace! It is a novel but it does touch on many issues that are relevant here not least chain of command and relationships between officers and soldiers which were quite different from those in other Napoleonic armies and explain some of the characteristics of Russian infantry in particular. I don't know enough about the history to vouch for its authenticity but, by and large, I think Tolstoy knew what he was talking about. I check out the Black Powder 1812 supplement as well.
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Post by davidsh on Mar 18, 2018 22:14:30 GMT
Yes indeed, Tolstoy did know what he was talking about. Not only did several of the the previous generation of his family serve in the wars against Napoleon but he was also an artillery officer in the Crimean War. Interestingly fought against the British comnanded by Lord Raglan - aka Fitzroy Somerset who was wounded at Waterloo!
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Post by profjohn on Mar 18, 2018 23:12:29 GMT
Indeed - Raglan. Now there's a general. I was roundly mocked in another forum for my championship of Raglan. But he never lost a battle, would have been in Sebastopol immediately after the Alma if he could have got the French to move (thus becoming a great Victorian hero, polishing off the Bear in one battle) and, above all, Wellington rated him. Basically he was stitched up after he died which is a shame as he was a more than competent soldier, personally brave under fire and an extremely nice man by all accounts. And pleasingly eccentric- not many generals watch the progress of battles from behind the enemy lines as he did at the Alma.
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Post by bruce on Mar 19, 2018 4:16:53 GMT
I read War and Peace in college, and I do not recall much about it as I was a terrible student and probably did as little as I could get away with on it.
You have given me the idea that I owe it to myself to read it again just to experience it as literature. It does seems like a great way to get a feel for Russia and the battles I will be fighting as part of a Russian campaign later in the year. Thanks! Bruce
And thanks for the insight on Raglan. The Crimean War is not much considered in America and I have assumed he was none too sharp from my sketchy awareness.
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Post by profjohn on Mar 19, 2018 18:35:54 GMT
Hibbert's 'The Destruction of Lord Raglan' and more recently Sweetman's 'Raglan' both set the record straight as, to an extent, does Figes' 'Crimea.' The Black Powder supplement i recommended is called The Clash of Eagles (not 1812 as I misremembered) and has the usual pen portraits of the command characteristics of the generals on both sides as well as suggestions about the specific qualities of thendifferent troop types in this campaign.
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Post by twr on Mar 21, 2018 3:16:12 GMT
Great! Have a good read. Saves reading War and Peace :-) War and Peace is excellent. Couldn’t put it down when I read it many years ago... I can’t recall much of the battles but the characters and linkage with the plot was from a literature perspective first class.
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Post by bruce on Mar 21, 2018 21:33:28 GMT
So...I have begun reading Lieven's Russia Against Napoleon subtitled "The True Story of the Campaigns of War and Peace" Much thanks again to you David! It's clear even from the intro that Russia's full story is one that has been generally been glossed over somewhat for the romance of le Grande Armee and British accounts of the wars.
I am far from expert but I have always had a feeling that Wagram, Borodino and especially Leipzig were the decisive and greatest battles of the Napoleonic wars, Waterloo not so much. This book promises to deliver the goods on everything from leaders to logistics from the Russian point of view. So far, so good and the writing is excellent. I will give a review when I finish in the Book section. Bruce
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Post by davidsh on Mar 23, 2018 18:16:54 GMT
Continuing the theme of suitable books - there are a couple by Alexander Mikaberidze with Russian accounts of 1812 and the Russian officer corps. Probably find them on Amazon as he is fairly contemporary.
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