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Post by tarkin1980 on Jun 14, 2015 10:37:10 GMT
Hey everyone, my name is Kristian and I'm from Stockholm, Sweden I'm looking to start a new 6mm project and I'm torn between GNW/WSS, 7YW and Napoleonics. I have played GNW and 7YW before, in 15mm and being a swede, I have a fairly good knowledge of GNW (The Great Northern War 1700-1721 just to clarify). When it comes to Napoleonics, though, I know pretty much nothing but have always had at least some interest. I own Might and Reason and Maurice by Sam Mustafa and while I've never actually played them, they look pretty good to me. I'm therefore thinking about buying Lasalle and Blücher. I'm basically asking you to sell me this period. Let me know what you think are the pros and cons (there has to be SOME cons, right? ) compared to GNW/WSS and 7YW.
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Post by tim on Jun 14, 2015 11:25:57 GMT
Hi Kristian and welcome to the forum! What you ask is a big thing but I will do my best (remember I have no great knowledge of 18th century warfare)
More fluid tactics than the earlier period, no standing in lines at 20 paces and asking the enemy to fire first! Try that against a French column of a British line and one, they won't listen and assume you are drunk and if they are British, just assume you are being polite and do as you ask. Say good bye to that battalion!
More arms co-operation (support) between cavalry, infantry and artillery (in theory at least).
Corps organisation (in most armies later in the period), a small self supporting army in it's own right (ideal for wargamers).
The colour and variety of the uniforms of all the nations involved.
The character of the diffent nations and their leaders. Who can resist not to be Napoleon or Wellington or even lesser mortals like Lasalle leading a brigade of light cavary to death or glory.
Figures available for all the main armies from several companies.
Many more reasons I cannot put my finger on but once you get involved in it, it becomes addictive.
Hope that helps a bit.
Tim
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Post by Richard on Jun 14, 2015 11:50:30 GMT
A super friendly forum with a growing cumminity who will help you every step of the way, were you can chat directly to manufactures and hobbyist alike, and rules there are so many rules you will always find a rule set you like .
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Post by tim on Jun 14, 2015 13:52:10 GMT
And what Richard said as well
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Post by tarkin1980 on Jun 14, 2015 16:53:08 GMT
Thanks So, since I am a complete novice when it comes to this period, I am a bit confused when it comes to the command structure of the armies. In almost every 18th century game I've played, the maneuver element is the batallion. I understand that this is not always the case here. For example, I think I read that in Blücher, the maneuver element is a brigade (which I don't yet know exactly the composition of). I presume it is the batallion in Lasalle? The reason I ask is, of course, the old issue of how to base my figures.
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Post by bruce on Jun 14, 2015 17:59:11 GMT
Welcome, you have come to a great place to learn about this stuff from friendly, supportive people. I am a Mustafa fan as well, have Lasalle and Blucher. Lasalle is a smaller scale tactical game, Blucher is a bigger picture with corps and a campaign component. They are well illustrated and relatively easy to use, will be helpful in answering some of your questions.
The great attraction of this era for me are the major changes in the scope and scale of warfare in Europe from previous times. I will give you my opinion on why this is such a great period to explore.
Theses wars lasted a long time, involved huge armies, vast areas. Napoleon was an obvious military genius. Army organization, strategy, tactics, politics, all part of a legacy that influenced warfare for generations to come. His opponents responded in kind. The corps structure came into being, and movement became far more rapid and critical. Infantry, horse, and artillery became more specialized, were more effectively organized and deployed. In organization and fighting principles, the modern army was born. If you want to read up, I think Chandler's Campaigns of Napoleon is the all around best source to start with, covers all this.
As gamers of this period, we enjoy the benefits as well. 6mm means we can portray a better idea of what the vast numbers involved in these battles looked like, and fit it all into a reasonable space. Lots of different countries involved means lots of different armies to create, each with their own characteristics. Tons of rule sets to choose from. Great 6mm scenics connections and ideas right here at the forum.
And of course the uniforms. A vast playground of uniforms if you like to paint soldiers. There are some fantastic painters in this forum, lots of examples and support.
There is so much going on in this era, it can seem overwhelming, that's the con. I began with small French and Austrian armies in the Italian campaign as a focal point. But the immensity of the era is also a strength, it never gets boring or loses its appeal! Bruce
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Post by tarkin1980 on Jun 14, 2015 19:31:33 GMT
Am I correct, though, in that the maneuver element/unit in Lasalle is the batallion and in Blücher the brigade?
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Post by tim on Jun 14, 2015 20:04:47 GMT
Correct Kristian. Use lasalle for small tactical battles and Blucher for big grand tactical battles.
Tim
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Post by tarkin1980 on Jun 14, 2015 21:37:15 GMT
I guess I'll buy both and see what I like best, although Lasalle seems very difficult to find.
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Post by tim on Jun 14, 2015 22:12:33 GMT
You can get Lasalle as a PDF download from Sam's site. Look here linkCan't seem to find a hard copy though. Tim
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Post by tarkin1980 on Jun 15, 2015 10:35:42 GMT
I'm going to have to look for a used copy then as I don't own a laptop or tablet.
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Post by ian on Jun 17, 2015 16:55:31 GMT
Welcome to the forum.
I find Napoleonic's allow not only the three troop types (cav, inf and art) but real differences between troops within each of these three types.
You can focus on just one time or location slot to save you from being too overwhelmed. Spain and Portugal being very good as lots of battles and nations involved or maybe the battle over Italy, so many choices and possibilities.
It is very addictive and whilst Napoleon got to win most battles no rule set seems to make the French impossible to beat meaning no super armies to spoil your fun
Hope you find our little corner of the web interesting
Ian
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Post by tarkin1980 on Jul 2, 2015 16:12:30 GMT
I've now acquired both Lasalle and Blücher and I am torn between them. They both look great to me. I just can't make up my mind. The concealed units and reserve moves of Blücher look like a lot of fun, but so do the possibilities of using different formations such as square and attack column in Lasalle. Do any of you guys play both, and have any basing ideas that you use for both games? I'm a bit picky with my basing and I suspect I will end up having to choose one ruleset, but I figured it worth asking as there could be something I haven't thought of.
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Post by tim on Jul 2, 2015 18:36:21 GMT
Hi Kristian, I use March Attack rules which can combine both factors. You can either have a unit representing a battalion or in a variant of the rules it can be a brigade. The individual units are based on two 40x30mm bases. In the batttalion version you can represent line, column or square (line= bases side by side, column= one base behind the other and square= bases back to back. In the Brigade version just keep them in the line formation (this is also almost a perfect match for Blucher basing). It also has the Blucher equivalent of the reserve moves. It does not have the concealed units of Blucher but this is easily overcome by using 'blinds' i.e. just a card to represent the unit until spotted. My advice would be to make some house rules and combine the best of both sets of rules. Its just a matter of deciding on how to base your figures to suit both (the two bases per unit would work well I think or you could even go to 4 half size bases to make it even more flexible. I have looked at Lasalle and was put off by the individual skirmish stands and weird differing frontages of units (a very old fashioned way of doing things in my opinion) and to be avoided if you ever want to change your rule system. Hope this helps a bit,
Tim
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yorkie
Active membe
Posts: 32
Favorite army: Austria 1809
Favorite battle: Aspern Essling
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Post by yorkie on Jul 2, 2015 20:15:12 GMT
I have had Lasalle since it was released, it looks like a great game, but the basing on my 6mm was just too small and fiddly(lots of bent or broken bayonets). I have recently got Blucher and am in the process of rebasing all my 6mm on big bases, which I think really suits the small scale better.
Lasalle I will use with 15mm I think (I know im a heretic!)
Steve
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Post by tarkin1980 on Jul 2, 2015 20:54:55 GMT
No matter which game or what basing system I choose, it will be on big bases. My 6mm 30 years war armies have 64 figures per foot base and 30-32 per horse base. That is with a base frontage of 90mm except for some deeper cuirassier units which are on 60mm frontage but with the same amount of figures.
If I was to choose Lasalle, I would probably go for 24 foot on 60x30mm bases and use 4-6 bases per unit as the rules suggest.
For Blücher, I would most likely use a square base of 70-80mm per unit. Not sure about the figure count. I would like these bases to be little dioramas of sorts.
The challenge is to come up with a solution that will look good for both. I'm not sure that I can.
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Post by Orlog Subedai on Jul 3, 2015 17:19:10 GMT
I have been wargaming Napoleonics since 1970 in a number of scales but I know nothing about any modern sets of rules. However, what I would suggest is that you read a few books on the period first, find out what makes it interesting for you, whether it be grand tactics at corps level or whether you want to go smaller, say at division level -anywhere between 6 -12 battalions plus supports depending on the nation. Once you get a 'feel' for the period it will be so much easier than getting it wrong in ignorance and having to start again. Also, try painting few figures to start with but don't base them until you are sorted.
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Post by captainchook on Jul 6, 2015 0:19:06 GMT
Hello Tarkin. Like Tim I also use March Attack for 6mm (see the rules section) but have also tried and liked other rules. For 15mm we use General de Brigade. I would suggest several things. As others have suggested, think about whether you want to play a division per side, a corps, or an army. The scale of game will, to some degree, dictate what rules you can use. Also think about whether you want more of a game or a simulation (although no two gamers will ever agree as to what this means and which rules are which!) or, alternatively, fast play or detail. The main thing I would suggest is to keep your basing flexible so that you can try different scales of game and different rules systems. There is no reason why figures for Lasalle cannot be used for Blücher as long as your basing system is flexible. A good place to get a feel for rules is Deepfriedhappymice: www.deepfriedhappymice.com/html/reviews.htmlGood luck, Anthony
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