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Post by bruce on Apr 25, 2018 2:56:42 GMT
Continuing my interest in little know battles, I am now laying out Durnstein, fought in November 1805 between an ad hoc French Corps under Mortier and an larger Russian/Austrian group under Kutusov. As our hero Archduke Charles is far to the south at this time, it falls to von Schmitt, his former chief of staff, to keep Kutusov from going off the rails with an elaborate scheme to divide his forces and fall upon the outnumbered Mortier at Durnstein from both flood plain and mountain defile with the Danube at his back. A desperate and costly battle results. This battle has a fascinating map, in which the Danube curls rather closely around a mountainous promotory with a band of flood plain at the base extending from the river’s edge and covered by vineyards. The vineyards created a difficult movement situation for linear formations, and I want to represent this in my rules. You can move pretty well, although not in line formation, between the vineyard rows. You cannot really cut across them very well at all and I am not sure how to represent this in movement and line of fire rules without getting too fiddly about it. No way to know which way the rows run so some sort of general approach would seem best – but I do not want movement to be so slow that the game is stalled by it. Dos anyone have any thoughts? Bruce
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Post by oldskirmishman on Apr 25, 2018 13:35:11 GMT
Yes. Prohibit movement through them. Very difficult to move through. Disordering for sure. I'm sure not the answer you wanted.
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Post by bruce on Apr 25, 2018 16:51:18 GMT
Thanks, Skirmishman! It certainly sounds like the right answer now that I think about it. Maybe just light troops doing some skirmishing? Accounts I have read are not really clear. It does sound like a difficult and confusing fight. I may have to just decide on various vineyard areas where movement is prohibited to represent the difficulty. Bruce
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Post by john124 on Apr 26, 2018 21:02:20 GMT
HI Bruce, using In The Grand Manner rules as a template.The vines could be class as hedges, which will cost you 2 inch movement penalty and will disorder you formation. An attack column would be able to move 6 inches dependent on class, a formation in line 4 inches again dependent on class. A full move to dress ranks from disorder. Hope you find something to ponder about here. Best regards John.
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Post by bruce on Apr 27, 2018 12:56:18 GMT
Thanks John. Loss of formation seems obvious for this, but some movement seems to reflect what actually happened. I think there would be pathways and access roads through the vineyards, so I think I am going to allow limited movement and costs to reform, perhaps a bit less than you describe.
This is was not a huge battle in terms of numbers, 40,000 in total, but casualties as a percentage were quite high. It's a good challenge to figure out how to represent continuous smaller scale attritional fighting as it might go on in difficult terrain while still using thpical 6mm rules overall. Bruce
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Post by profjohn on Apr 30, 2018 0:41:23 GMT
By November I think the vines would have been cut back and as this could be quite a radical process maybe the obstacle they presented wouldn't have been quite so difficult. If the vines were planted on a hill they would probably have been in rows which went up and down the slope so the extent of disorder would be dependent on the direction of march. My understanding is that eighteenth-century vineyards often had footpaths between each row of vines which also acted as drainage channels so movement helped in dry weather but very difficult if it had been raining or snowing. So in dry weather in winter infantry marching in the direction of the rows and using the paths probably could have passed through a vineyard and kept some formation. If the local viticulture included some form of overhead training there might have been posts and lines in place at a awkward height which would be another kind of obstacle of course but I don't know what the practice for that region would have been at that time.
Don't know if that helps or not! It's certainly an interesting problem.
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Post by bruce on Apr 30, 2018 4:02:22 GMT
Excellent points, Prof. When I went to make my first representation of the vineyard rows, I had flock for fall leaves! But these would be gone. Cold and snowy as well. It seems the vineyard rows are perpendicular to the river. As you say, paths would have allowed for some organized movement in that direction, but hardly ideal. I think any movement through these vineyards should be limited to a reduced allowance in the direction of the rows, with reduced firing capacity. Movement across the rows limited to a token allowance with even more reduced firing.
So a compromise, not ideal, but might best reflect the impact of this terrain on the battle.
In in the summer, I think vineyards in general are just too much of a jumble for movement, as skirmish man says. Find a road, go around. Bruce
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Post by bandit on Jun 12, 2018 14:12:39 GMT
I'm chiming in quite late, but in case it is useful to anyone… while working on the Dürenstein scenario for our ESR Campaign Guide: Roll up that Map, 1805 in Germany, I read several accounts of the fighting that included discussion of the vineyards.
There was fighting in the vineyards by the lead Russian column, and the fact that the French were far more comfortable breaking into open order to move and reforming rapidly to fight, was one of the advantages that prevented the initial French salient from being overwhelmed. My understanding is that the vineyard rows covered a large enough area that they were not in a single given direction but were generally perpendicular to the river.
Cheers,
The Bandit
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Post by bruce on Jun 13, 2018 17:43:08 GMT
Thanks David. I have found this battle a bit of a challenge to set up. It really has some unique geographic figures, the curve of the Danube, the mountain passes, and those vineyards. I still haven't got it quite right. I should check out your campaign book for this one. Bruce
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Post by bandit on Jun 15, 2018 4:21:38 GMT
Thanks David. I have found this battle a bit of a challenge to set up. It really has some unique geographic figures, the curve of the Danube, the mountain passes, and those vineyards. I still haven't got it quite right. I should check out your campaign book for this one. Bruce The battle is really painful for the Russians (potentially) but it does have potential. The largest issue for them (in my opinion) is actually the crazy delay until the columns coming through the mountain passes arrive. The initial Russian column sent forward (into the vineyards actually) is supposed to start fighting at like 8AM. The various columns coming through the mountains are supposed to be attacking at like 10-11AM, but none gets there before noon and most arrive around 4PM. Miloradovich’s troops had been done fighting for hours before the flanking columns ever arrived, and they showed up in just terrible shape, all were fatigued, disorganized, and understrength due to masses of stragglers. Some grenadier battalions mutinied at a small village in the mountains and never arrived. It was a mess. Despite all that it was still relatively difficult for the French because Mortier had so few troops available until Dupont’s Division arrives – which it did, at just the right time to sweep away the sad Russian masses that poured out of the mountain passes. Cheers, The Bandit
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