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Post by bruce on Feb 21, 2018 23:02:36 GMT
i have always been partial to figure removal to show reduced fighting effectivenes, maybe a childhood preference which is now considered old school. I use magnetic bases so I can remove stands within a unit. I like to have some disordered troops be seen running away. I use Irregular's 6mm casualty bases to show symbolic dead and wounded where they fall, even though I track the numbers with markers. This looks to me like it should. A little messy and confusing, and it gives a look and feel for how the fight is going.
As I consider yet another rules purchase in my apparently endless quest, Volley & Bayonet, I am already thinking I might find a way to get around keeping rosters. Maybe I just like playing with my toys! I know many basing systems are not that flexible, but I still prefer to see a base removed when it's done for.
To some extent this is a balance between appearance and ease of play. What methods do you like the best for tracking the status of units as the game goes on? Why? Bruce
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Post by twr on Feb 24, 2018 2:43:19 GMT
I prefer the figures stay on the stand and some other way is used to track the deterioration of a unit’s combat effectiveness. This could be markers or rosters or a combination of both.
Firstly, on the bases figures are more likely to be protected. That’s an important factor for me.
Secondly, rosters often don’t alert either player to the deteriorating situation of a formation, be it a regiment or division. In large games this becomes important as with limited visual clues it can be hard to know how much additional pressure is needed to achieve a breakthrough. That said some visual clues of the situation are likely to be visible. In Volley & Bayonet these visual clues are disorder results, and in Spearhead suppression results.
Interestingly, in V&B, I’ve often forgotten how some of my own divisions are tracking in large battles. I’ve been so focussed on the “big picture” I have forgotten that a certain division really can’t take too much more damage - and paid the price! I should have looked at the rosters, but forget...
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Post by bruce on Feb 24, 2018 15:38:11 GMT
I had not thought about the fog of war aspect of rosters, a good point even for solo players. There is a span of practices here, from well managed gaming to near diorama appearances. Your table has a great look and feel to it. For me, it treads the middle ground well.
We all compromise depending on personal taste. I do not want paperwork so I look for shortcuts, but may short change myself when it comes to gathering all the info that can bring a game closer to history.
A few years ago I purchased Carnage & Glory II. It uses software to track everything from fatigue to ammo for units. It is a great game tool in many ways and by hiding some of the data and conditions while automatically following the impact of everything that is going on, it gives players a more realistic feeling of a battle unfolding before them. It has a devoted bunch of regular players, even being used for the Waterloo refight at West Point in 2015.
But somebody has to enter the data after every turn! C&G II plays best when there is a data entry person full time, thus its big game popularity over the last 20 years. As a solo tool, it had good promise, but I did not adjust to stopping for the office work.
It seems a big part of this hobby for me has become rules study and design. This study has naturally broken down into sections relating to Movement, Combat, Command, Morale, etc., and many subsections. From all of this, I began to put together my own rules for personal use. These came to be called "My Own Damn Rules" and are a continuous, evolving entity in that I am always open to new ideas and changes.
This is part of the reason I reach out to you all for your experience, guidance, and common sense. Much appreciated!
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Post by bruce on Feb 24, 2018 19:32:17 GMT
By the way, I have discovered a unique tabletop marking system, used by Gonsalvo, a long time Piquet Field of Battle player, who runs a great website - Blunders on the Danube 1809.
He uses animal figures behind his bases! In particular, a small chicken is used as a marker to indicate a unit is in disorder or routed. Must be some fun conversations during these games! Bruce
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Post by twr on Feb 24, 2018 22:02:05 GMT
We all compromise depending on personal taste. I do not want paperwork so I look for shortcuts, but may short change myself when it comes to gathering all the info that can bring a game closer to history... Or our own version of history. Here is the beauty of wargaming and the variety of rules and indeed, scales. What do we want to model? What do we wish the visuals to look like? How do we translate this to our view of a game? There is of course no right or wrong answer.
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Post by bruce on Feb 25, 2018 18:26:58 GMT
A great point to remember and a hallmark of this forum Keith. There is no right or wrong way. None of us were there so we are all guessing, and we want to enjoy things in our own way.
Speaking of which - I see that Hobbylinc has a huge selection of farm and many other animals in many scales which could be used as unit status markers. Chickens, of course, but lions as well, sheep, etc. Many opportunities to be clever! Bruce
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Post by profjohn on Feb 25, 2018 22:21:45 GMT
I'm really basic on this - simply use different coloured plastic counters. I don't use casualty figures (except in the odd vignette - my staff officer groups usually have a casualty or two somewhere) for two reasons. Firstly, there's enough to paint as it is. Secondly, I have a strange unease about painting models of dead soldiers. I know it's irrational given the nature of our hobby but there it is. But back to counters - I have all manner of plans for more sophisticated and visually attractive methods but I suspect my bag of counters won't ever get replaced!
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Post by Orlog Subedai on Feb 26, 2018 15:09:34 GMT
For my 5mm blocks casualty removal is a bit of a non starter, therefore casualty recording is a necessity. In saying that, states of physical and mental disorder are represented by the little circular, coloured, sticky labels for a visual aid.
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Post by bruce on Feb 28, 2018 6:23:34 GMT
I suspect markers and rosters are the way to go for most folk, or you might feel like you would never get a game in. Keeping it simple does make sense. I suspect also that I am just trying to add extra drama to my solo narrative by removing figures.
I do understand your unease in painting casualties, Profjohn. I am not comfortable gaming WW2, Korea, or Vietnam. I also avoid the ACW, too much baggage. Irrational as well, given that all conflicts have similar consequences. Sometimes I have pondered these implications, but I think we all honor those who served and sacrificed. Their stories give us inspiration. And...my dad got me playing with toy soldiers long ago. I like keeping those childhood memories going! Bruce
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Post by profjohn on Mar 5, 2018 0:13:10 GMT
I don't do any twentieth century gaming for what are essentially ethical reasons - although it's a complex and not well thought through set of ethical reasons! I do the 'ACW intervention' in 10mm stimulated solely by a comment I once saw about Pickett's Charge and whether the French Guard would have made it and by the fact that the estimable Pendraken do Canadian militia for the period.I'll try it one day and they'll be backed up by the Canadian Grenadier Guards (who otherwise don't get many runs out if you don't game the Grear War).
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Post by bruce on Mar 5, 2018 1:55:40 GMT
I think we are somewhat on the same page, Prof. What a facinating idea! There has been some new historical scholarship regarding our understanding of Pickett's, or whoever's Charge it was. I was there recently and always find it a very somber experience. For me Gettysburg is a spooky place, haunted by the armies.
I cannot imagine the Guard being sent, nor the Canadians, by Napoleon on such a mission. There was really no way to get even close unless the rebel artillery had been more effective before the charge commenced. Even then, not very likely to succeed - as Wellington often did, the Union troops made good use of the reverse slope during the pre assault barrage, which was plagued by bad ammunition. The Guard and the Canadiens would know that the frontal charge would not work. The rebels certainly knew, but they went anyway. Men of great courage and as good as the Guard. They had been at Fredericksburg and still they tried.
Better to have the Guard break off and begin a flank march to get between Meade and Washington! Give Lee a rest and put Longstreet in charge, give Grant command of the Union army. What a campaign this could be! Bruce
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Post by profjohn on Mar 5, 2018 20:46:42 GMT
I agree - they wouldnt have made it either . I've just finished Chernow's biography of Grant. A wonderful book about an extraordinary and charismatic man.
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Post by twr on Mar 5, 2018 20:54:24 GMT
I have refought Gettysburg several times. Sometimes as multiplayer games but also with a single player on each side. It is a fascinating battle to refight. For me the benefits gained from rosters, where the true strength of the enemy is not on display, is highlighted by the refights.
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Post by bruce on Mar 5, 2018 22:51:36 GMT
A very good point Keith. Fog of war helps put you there for sure.
Lee was particularly ill served by Stuart, whose cavalry failed to provide the recce he needed. As the Army of the Potomac concentrated, Lee had little info about who was where. And as Pickett's charge commenced, several of the rebel commanders believed that the barrage had seriously damaged the Union line, which was actually fairly well intact as well as supported out of sight behind the ridge. A tragic blunder for the ages as Longstreet's advice was not taken. But the war would not be the same and the end was coming into view.
Grant is finally getting the recognition he deserves as one of history's greatest generals and a good man who saved his country. Chernow is a part of some of the new ACW scholarship which is focused on objectivity and research. But the war and its cause is a difficult topic for many and I find it uncomfortable to game it as a result. Bruce
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