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Post by bruce on Nov 8, 2015 21:35:06 GMT
I am taking the rules from Neil's Napoleonic Wargaming for a spin. Does anyone have any feedback to give on these rules? Has anyone tried using these rules with larger armies than the author's recommended 8 units per side? Bruce
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Post by tim on Nov 8, 2015 23:26:39 GMT
I know the name Bruce but can't say I have any experience of his rules.
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Post by mike1956 on Nov 9, 2015 0:38:31 GMT
Bruce I bought the rules a couple of months back. I've read through the complete book a few times, it looks good and easy to play but army sizes make think of WRG DBA (which I thought was brilliant for ancients) gaming. There's no reason at all you can't keep your big sized armies and use the rules, you'll just have to disregard the army lists, but not the characteristics of the troop types. It may be, thats all the rules are designed for old style, basic good fun wargaming. I will give them a go in the future and the book is a very nice read, great photo's and nice to have on the bookshelf. Oh there have been a couple of articles on the web using the rules which were very good. Mike
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Post by ooiittee on Nov 9, 2015 12:28:13 GMT
Bruce
We play NT rules exclusively as its a great introduction to napoleonic gaming and I find myself playing with new gamers alot.
Couple of frustrating points.
Cavalry dont seem to be able to effect infantry in hand to hand. Its the silly saving roll that infantry get that destroys cav effectiveness. I have had countless time when i have charged a line formation that is down 1 stand with 4 hvy cav and bounced back losing the assault. Reality is they would have rolled them no probs.
Artillery. The rules cover 1 stand per army. You will want alot more but you need to lessen the affect. We play 24cm close 48 long. 1d3 shoots for close range and 1 shot for long. We also have horse cav that moves at 16cm and can perform 2 functions a turn, move limber, fire etc.
The other point is on artillery quality. British guns were some of the best guns of the period but they didnt have the numbers of the other nations. The rules put Brits hitting at 5+ next to the spanish. We put them at 4+, keeping the french guns at 3+ for flavour as the British inf shoot at 3+. I am sure NT thought this would balance out but when you expand you army lists it just doesnt.
Hope this helps. Its a great somple rule set and every time i have wanted to change something i read his explaination and it just makes sense.
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Post by bruce on Nov 9, 2015 19:05:08 GMT
Thank you very much. Very helpful indeed! It seems there are easy adjustments one can make depending on your own ideas. This book is so well written and thought out that I am being quickly converted. While Sam Mustafa does take some time to explain the background for some of his rules, NT has made this a big part of his presentation and it makes sense. May do a book review at some point after I get some more time in with it.
By the way ooiittee, what happens to your cavalry after they have charged successfully? It doesn't seem like they should get more movement allowance until their next turn, but maybe they have movement options as the victors? Am I missing something? I feel like I may be looking for stuff that deliberately is not there! Which is part of the reason I am liking these rules. Bruce
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Post by ooiittee on Nov 9, 2015 19:51:25 GMT
Agree. In play you will see its gamifing a battle clearly and not trying to simulate one.
Cav are missing breakthrough and rally rules for after combat. But in alot of cases cav were a one shoot unit activated at the right time to swing the battle. But i still cant help but want to pull them back or bust on with them after the charge.
I am working on some mods that try to keep the simplicity but add in some missing components. Hastely formed squares (so i can eliminate the inf save which makes no sense), adding in Elan which is not present, psychology for morale etc.
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Post by ooiittee on Nov 9, 2015 23:12:58 GMT
The more I think about it, we have changed a lot more of the rules as I recalled.
We have adjusted the measurements for 6mm as you cant have muskets firing 16cm while troops march at 8cm in line, half the units are destroyed before making contact.
So we use these ranges which are just rounded divisions of the original measures for 15mm scales down to 6mms in most cases.
Shooting 4cm Carbine (Light Cav) 8cm Musket (Line and some Lights) 12cm Rifles (some Lights) 24cm Artillery Short (1d3 shots) 48cm Artillery Long (1 shot)
Movement Column of Route 12cm Attack Column 12cm Line 8cm Light Inf 12cm Foot Art 12cm
Light Cav 24cm Heavy Cav 20cm Horse Art 16cm (can perform two functions per move)
Lights Can move and fire if only moving half distance. Suffer no penalties moving through rough ground.
Artillery Keep in mind that the rules for Art are treating all the armies artillery into one consolidated stand. To army up your game you need to distribute this out so we lessen the impact of artillery but have it perform the functions of is design, soften targets as they advance & provide a strong point of repulsion fire at close range to repel assaults.
I will leave it at this as I am working on so many enhancements that I am bound to get into untested rules if I continue, all the above are solid tested and played well of 30 battles now, rules. Each battle has been fine (right up to the point Cavalry gets into the fight then it goes pear shaped).
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Post by bruce on Nov 10, 2015 0:53:14 GMT
Thanks for this, great stuff! I also adjusted the range and movement allowances myself, will try yours. There are definitely some things you can do here without upsetting the balance NT is trying for, especially for cavalry and artillery.
I am under the impression that cavalry charged to exploit exposed flanks or other weaknesses and often withdrew to regroup even after a success, unless there was a major collapse to exploit in a pursuit. I will try something along these lines and see what happens. The saving roll for inf is some kind of balancing factor as you say, but doesn't really fit with heavy cavalry bearing down on troops in line. The quick square option might be good for well disciplined quality units, skip the saving roll. I have based up some artillery units for both sides. Gotta have more than one each. Other ideas to try may include activation rule and artillery ammo limits a la Blucher
Thank you for sharing these experiences, I will post more as I fool around more with this. By the way, I am using these rules with a 4 X 9 square grid table. So far my couple of tries are producing a fun, moderately fast game. I am liking it! Expanding armies next, will keep posting. Bruce
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Post by ooiittee on Nov 10, 2015 1:04:00 GMT
We are able to knock out a 2 corp battle in about 6-8 hours depending on the pace. Here is our last BIG battle (Brisbane Independent Gamers). It works on a small and a grand scale so well, and is fast. As you can see by the table size we have plenty of maneuver options. Oh and we add in a 4cm bonus move for units in Column and marching on roads.
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Post by mike1956 on Nov 11, 2015 0:45:21 GMT
ooiittee Great photo's! Are your 4 base units representing a brigade in your photo's? I've already adjusted the range and move distances to something workable.
Mike
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Post by ooiittee on Nov 11, 2015 0:46:57 GMT
It can be a Btn or a Brigade depending on the scale we want to be going for. Here they are brigades.
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Post by mike1956 on Nov 11, 2015 11:59:26 GMT
No worries, its clicked with me now.
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Post by bruce on Dec 1, 2015 22:26:19 GMT
So...another question. According to NT the light infantry are in skirmish formation. As skirmishers the light infantry seem to me to have a lot of firepower and impact in these rules, just my opinion here.
I see from your photos, ooiittee, that you appear to have some units based as lights - have you any rule changes for skirmishing? I am thinking about basing some voltigeurs and jaegers I have as loose skirmish formations, looking for ideas for rules. Skirmishers seem to get tacked on in some rules as added factors rather than actually appearing on the field and I would like to represent them without getting too complex. Bruce
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Post by ooiittee on Dec 2, 2015 12:29:16 GMT
I do have issues with the way NT has setup Lights. I would agree with your point of the power they have. Granted they hit on a 5+.
I have worked on some ideas around this and have settled on the following for play testing.
Lights are only hit on 6's and have 1 hit per stand. Light Reg operate as line normally but can form Light stands with 1 Line stand making 2 Light stands. Line Inf can (if nationality permits) detach its light companies by removing 1 line stand and placing 2 Light stands down. This can only be done if the Line unit still have all 4 stands and the unit morale grade is trained or higher. When a unit detaches or reattaches itself to its parent or to form its main body (as with a Light unit forming in close order) each stand forming up adds 2 hits to the parent unit, these hits are added to the units total or new stands of close order at placed on the table to reflect their return.
Skirmish on skirmish, each stand engaged rolls 1 die, each 6 rolled destroys a stand, if no hits are made compare the single highest die roll for each side, highest wins the skirmish, both move to the rear of the parent units (or falls back if a full skirmish unit, 6cm) while gaining the parent unit gains +1 die per stand in hand to hand or +1 die firing in shooting. If its a draw, both skirmishers move to the rear removing casulaties if there were any with no side gaining bonus in follow up actions this turn.
example: The 52nd British light Reg at full strength is formed up in close order (4 stands (I know it was a big reg, but lets keep it simple)) wishes to deploy a skirmish screen to their front while advancing. They remove 1 stand of close order figures and place 2 skirmish stands within 6cm (half lights move) from the parent, these are placed side by side. The 52nd now has 3 stands totally 12 hits, and 2 skirmish stands each having 1 hit each and only take hits on 6's.
fighting intensifies and the skirmish line makes contact with some French Voltigeurs (2 stands). Both roll off against each other, ecah rolling 1 die per stand, French roll a 3,1 and British 2,3. Comparing the highest roll 3 both sides draw and retire to the rear of their parent unit. No 6's were rolled so no stands were lost. Neither side gains advantage in the coming engagement either.
The 52nd fights off the french threat and wishes now to reform its skirmish line back to the parent body. During the battle however they have taken 3 hits. Upon return the 2 skirmish will add 2 hits each to the parent, totally 4. this returns the 4th stand of close order to the unit. If the 52nd takes a further hit it will lose the ability to detach companies in the aforementioned manner. However they are a light unit so capable of forming skirmish order for the entire unit. which it now does.
For every two hits the unit has left it will place a single stand of skirmishers down. It retains 13 hits so may place 6 units of skirmish on the field. And yes when it forms up it will return only 12 hits (if no losses are encountered)
There is a number of points not covered here but this is the basics of things. I need to work out how to operate light that wish to perform general fire for casualties, but for now this is a start.
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Post by bruce on Dec 3, 2015 2:19:46 GMT
Excellent! I like the idea of removing a stand from a close order formation to throw out the screen of skirmishers. I have based each of my four stand units on a piece of craft foam with two sided cello tape on it. The stands have felt bottoms so I can remove them at will or change formation and have them lightly stick to the unit base, and still be able to move them around as a group without toppling them. Another aid to easier play, along with the grids as the experiments continue.
And you have given the lights more appropriate impact. I am not that sure that light infantry compared to voltigeurs, jaegers, etc. are actually all quiet the same thing. My HR figures for these skirmish types are slightly smaller than regular troops as they were in real life. I don't really know, but I think of Lights as less encumbered and faster, could be skirmishers, but not so specifically chosen and trained as voltigeurs. Anyway, your rule ideas are very helpful.
Well done, you have made it so that skirmishers can appear as themselves, do their thing, return to their units. I will fool around with this after I get my skirmishers based.
By the way, I just realized that fellow forum member Suchet's Champ d Honneur rules also let skirmishers appear as themselves in this manner. Although his rules are more complicated, less of a game for my aging mind, they are particularly designed to give accurate historical results - not old school, but as good as any recent rules you may find with some unique features for those looking for this style of contest.
Thanks once again ooiittee! Bruce
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Post by mike1956 on Dec 3, 2015 3:18:47 GMT
ooiittee
Just read your reply to Bruce's question Though your reply was directly to a question from Bruce and keeping in mind it's your solution / idea to the skirmisher issue, you wouldn't mind if I adapted your idea as well would you?
Regards Mike
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Post by ooiittee on Dec 3, 2015 6:38:10 GMT
Absolutely not Mike, I would ask that you add your thoughts hear so we might all consider it.
We need to keep in mind that we have Light Infantry and Skirmish Infantry. Lights can fight in both Close order and Skirmish order, while Skirmish only fight in skirmish order.
As I pointed out before I am yet to work out how to fire for effect with units in skirmish. I see them as having three roles
1, break up an advancing force advancing on a parent Reg/Brig. An expansion of this function is counter screening. This is represented by giving a bonus to the parent unit in the ensuing engagement that follows the skirmish fight. In this role a skirmish unit doesnt act along but has works to support the parent units attack.
2, harassing enemy, given their training and formation skirmish are ideally suited to poke at the enemy formed units. My thoughts on this is that a single stand rolls 1 die, hitting on 6's, but for each stand of skirmish troops firing the number to hit drops by 1. So 3 stands firing role only 1 die and hit on a 4+ for a single hit. Only 1 hit is possible if fired in this manner to reflect the volume of fire being less than Formed.
3, garrison, while a skirmish unit has only one hit and are only hit on 6's, they still gain the benefit of cover from built up areas and woods.
Just more musings.
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Post by bruce on Jan 6, 2016 4:08:38 GMT
So...the musings continue, especially around the cavalry charge. I think the saving dice roll for infantry in line being charged frontally by cavalry has to go. As these defenders are permitted to fire a volley during this phase, that seems like enough to me - especially as these troops may be facing heavy cavalry and would be sorely tested.
Also, I am adjusting the range of the cavalry for charging whether you use cms or inches. I will try having the overall movement allowance for cavalry remain the same in regular movement. But for charging, their charging range is 2/3 of this total. Unless they are defeated, in which case they fall back per NT, the remaining third of their movement allowance may be used to fall back in good order, or occupy a position vacated by defeated enemy troops.
I will fool around with this and see how it works, hoping it resolves those issues which I thought were not quite right. Brue
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Post by ooiittee on Jan 28, 2016 1:50:11 GMT
Bruce.
Keep in mind that there is no elan covered so the line has no way to break the charge from its fire. You might want to add the casualties taken during defensive fire in to account for the combat result calculation.
I have made things a little more complicated. I have the cav roll 2d6 and measure their range to target. If this roll is equal or less than they are considered FAST charging. If it is greater then they are SLOW charging.
Infantry now choose to form square. This is done using the morale table with a -1 to the roll if cav are FAST. if cav are slow it's a +1. Alternatively if cav are SLOW then you could drop the + and give a recollection instead.
Combat is fought using the formation the unit is in at contact. No saves. Also defensive fire is not available to any unit forming square as a result of a charge. If they are already in one then they may fire.
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Post by bruce on Jan 28, 2016 2:16:52 GMT
Ah, yes, this is an excellent point and one that I did arrive at when I realized that the volley should have a chance to affect the result if the saving roll was taken away.
I like your idea very much and will try it out, it adds some more excitement to the charge as well as lending some uncertainty for solo play interest. I don't know how long it took to form square, but I imagine I would have moved pretty quickly with some French cuirassiers heading my way at any speed! I keep a small table set up permanently in my home office just to work with rules. My wife thinks it's just a decorative display. Thanks for this excellent idea! Bruce
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Post by ooiittee on Jan 30, 2016 0:15:56 GMT
My research in squares when working on this suggested rule indicated that a fully formed square took drilled troops 1min to form. But you can bet your left nad that when you have 600 horse baring down on you it would take less than that.
Most squares formed in response to an incoming assault would have been hastily formed and less resolute to a cav charge.
Also added to the square rules i have added that artillery may recollection a single die that missed when firing on squares. Only 1 reroll of a single die that missed on the original roll. This is to show that squares did take a bit of a hammering by artillery and still keeps a bit of a "check" positioning the needs resolving to free up squared troops before they get destroyed.
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Post by ooiittee on Jan 30, 2016 0:17:25 GMT
My research in squares when working on this suggested rule indicated that a fully formed square took drilled troops 1min to form. But you can bet your left nad that when you have 600 horse baring down on you it would take less than that. Most squares formed in response to an incoming assault would have been hastily formed and less resolute to a cav charge. Also added to the square rules i have added that artillery may recollection a single die that missed when firing on squares. Only 1 reroll of a single die that missed on the original roll. This is to show that squares did take a bit of a hammering by artillery and still keeps a bit of a "check" positioning the needs resolving to free up squared troops before they get destroyed. Reroll (damn predictive text) not recollection
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