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Grids
Sept 5, 2015 20:18:00 GMT
Post by bruce on Sept 5, 2015 20:18:00 GMT
Hi Everyone - just wondering if any of you have any thoughts, positive or negative, about using gridded mats on wargames tables. They seem to make a number of things easier to deal with, but they are also clearly visible. I am wondering more about the smaller printed grids, both hexes and squares, on Chessex battlemats and the like rather than the big hex grid components you assemble. Movement, ranges, zones of control and interaction, firing arcs, all seem to get less fiddly. Too old school and intrusive, perhaps? Or a handy tool for easier gaming? Bruce
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Grids
Sept 5, 2015 21:55:16 GMT
Post by tim on Sept 5, 2015 21:55:16 GMT
My main problem is that your are tied to hex based rules. You don't have to use such rules of course but then why bother? And I just don't like the look of hexes on a wargames table Tim
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Grids
Sept 6, 2015 2:06:33 GMT
Post by grizzlymc on Sept 6, 2015 2:06:33 GMT
And steel tapes are so much cheaper.
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Post by ooiittee on Sept 6, 2015 22:29:45 GMT
It would make more sense and be cheaper to print the hex grid on a roll of clear plastic and place it over the mat. You only print it once, it means your mat can retain the option of not having hexes, you can then also make up your own maps and terrain and then hex it up.
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Grids
Sept 7, 2015 4:06:58 GMT
Post by ooiittee on Sept 7, 2015 4:06:58 GMT
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Grids
Sept 7, 2015 4:13:16 GMT
Post by bruce on Sept 7, 2015 4:13:16 GMT
I am playing Blucher right now, and tinkering still with fellow forum member Suchet's rules developed by his club (worth a look if you are a rules nut, some interesting concepts). I have a number of rule sets, too many perhaps.
But the Vintage Wargaming site got me thinking about the pioneers again, Joseph Moreschauser among them. He used a squared grid, and I played some games with it years ago. The linear troop formations of the Napoleonic era era fit this type of grid pretty well. Over on TMP there are some scathing comments, like there are about a lot of things, about grid users.
So, maybe just to be different, I am going to set up a 4 x 4 side project using a small squares grid, Oolitee's idea is a good one. Priorities will be to make the grid unobtrusive using various scenic elements, judge ease of play and amount of time saved, and see if it feels too much like a board game.
Honestly, with all the other game related appearance compromises we make when our scenery is not really to scale or saying one figure equals 20 men, or having our units moving around on thick square bases, etc. I am not sure why using grids is so bad. I want to see how some of our newer rules concepts convert to this type of play.
But I may hate it! I won't give up my tape measure either. Bruce
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Grids
Sept 7, 2015 4:21:53 GMT
Post by bruce on Sept 7, 2015 4:21:53 GMT
Yikes that is an interesting site Oolittee! It might be a way to make visible, precise, but unobtrusive grids on a board. Thanks, will explore. Bruce
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Grids
Sept 8, 2015 3:09:12 GMT
Post by bruce on Sept 8, 2015 3:09:12 GMT
<img style="max-width: 100%;" alt="First time grid set up" src='http://'> Here is a first try at using squares with some scenic elements. Austrian Uhlans approach a village. My first photo for the forum, pretty clueless! Now to start modifying some rules to make a go of it. The H&R Uhlans are temp based for Blucher using two sided cello tape so I can change formations, the mat is a Chessex megamat, of which I seem to have bought four some time ago to make a 4X12 table, then never did anything with them as I discovered Nap rules did not use grids. Will see how it goes. Bruce
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Post by ooiittee on Sept 8, 2015 3:17:41 GMT
What game are you working on this for?
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Grids
Sept 8, 2015 3:43:15 GMT
Post by bruce on Sept 8, 2015 3:43:15 GMT
My own - but that's not really true. Its a work in progress that just sort of sprung up after reading the Vintage Wargaming blog and I am borrowing things I like. I will try parts of Blucher because I like the way troops are activated and there is a way to do this solo with a bit of software from the Honour forum. I also like the roster downloads from Blucher and the Elan system for hits and results. But I also am reminded of the old Avalon Hill Gettysburg with map and squares, and may use some of those rules for tactical advantages related to flanking. The squares hopefully make all movements, firing distances, and positions clear, and I will try to come up with some simple rules that give reasonably realistic results and an enjoyable game. Bruce
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Grids
Sept 10, 2015 2:57:53 GMT
Post by bruce on Sept 10, 2015 2:57:53 GMT
<img style="max-width: 100%;" alt="" src='http://'>French begin flanking movement against Austrians on ridge. Working on firing rules here. I have borrowed some movement rules, reducing movement factors to allow for pivots and to even diagonals out with square movements for distance. I have found a grid-based wargames group on Yahoo with rules and ideas. I realize that this is all rather heretical! Thinking about the old days got me going down this road - still have the latest non-grid rules to come back to. Will post again after I have more feed back.
Still cannot figure out how to take photos but I will practice. Bruce
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Grids
Sept 13, 2015 9:28:18 GMT
Post by jambo1 on Sept 13, 2015 9:28:18 GMT
Never used grids before but this looks pretty good, may have to have another think about it.
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Grids
Sept 14, 2015 1:18:32 GMT
Post by bruce on Sept 14, 2015 1:18:32 GMT
Thanks, Jambo. As I pursue this, I am thinking that square grids have a place in today’s gaming systems. The obvious drawback if the visibility of the lines, and some who focus on painting figures and scenery may feel that this detracts from the appearance of their beautiful work when they do game. There are many personal preferences involved. The other drawback is the linear nature of the gridded game. Try as they might, officers could not always dress their lines or hold their positions in such a fashion and human beings might run off in all directions. It may also be that players see the battle and potential moves more easily with the grids, removing some of the intuitive feel and fog of war. The linear nature of square grids does seem to work pretty well with Napoleonic formations and tactics however. And - all measurements are immediately definitive without any tools. Full and partial enfilade positions are clear to players. Game turns are faster, noticeably less fiddly. Rules for movement and fire seem clearer and easier to understand. Movement is more versatile than you might think. You know without question that your bases have gone where the rules intended them to.
From reading various blogs, it seems that the modest movement to return to old school rules may be a bit of a backlash against increasingly complex rules. Dale Hurtt’s rules for square grid Naps reflect this and are quite good by any standard. This argument went on between Donald Featherstone and Jack Scruby 50 years ago and finding the balance between realism and playability remains a consideration. Incidently, it was Featherstone and Bath in the UK who argued for playability as the Americans kept introducing increasingly complex concepts. That said, I am a big fan of LaSalle and Blucher, and have numerous other sets of rules I am sure I will play again. Todays hex grid players have adapted many of our favorite rules to grids, building in flexibility. A testimony to grid and non grid rules alike. But I am having fun with the squares. The grid lines do not really bother me too much aesthetically. I am enjoying trying out various rules concepts to find the balance that suits me. That’s part of the fun of all this. We each have our visions of what that means in our approach to the hobby. Its all good! Bruce
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Grids
Sept 14, 2015 5:02:22 GMT
Post by jambo1 on Sept 14, 2015 5:02:22 GMT
The grid lines don't seem to distract from your table set-up, still looks a good game with good figures and scenery. I am certainly going to give it a try.
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Grids
Sept 15, 2015 5:26:04 GMT
Post by mike1956 on Sept 15, 2015 5:26:04 GMT
Interesting concept using grids, as mention vintage gaming. I've been looking at hex games, C&C Naps. Mike
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Post by bruce on Sept 16, 2015 2:39:40 GMT
I think there are quite a few hex based C&C players, including some members here. C&C seems to be having a good run these days.
Ooiittee - I am still thinking about your design idea for adding grids to existing game mats/surfaces. Ideal! Looking at materials.
Jambo - if you are interested, I can email you a downloaded copy of Dale Hurtt's square grid rules for Naps, I got them on the Yahoo grid based forum as a free file. A good starting point. Also has some diagrams attached. Bruce
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Grids
Sept 16, 2015 3:46:35 GMT
Post by captainchook on Sept 16, 2015 3:46:35 GMT
Have you looked at To the Strongest (ancients rules using grids) tothestrongest.yuku.com/?I also see that Crusader publishing have a hex based game for Napoleonics: Great Battles. The advantage of grids is that it makes things very clear with no room for argument. It stops some b@$*@^d telling you a flank charge cannot happen because 1mm of the cavalry regiment's frontage is blocked by a wall - and this was with 15mm figures!!!! I see grids working well for ancients where maneouvre was a bit more basic, I wonder whether this could restrict you too much with Naps. Although, this may only be an issue where we are interested in minor tactics, and may not be such an issue are the grand tactical level.
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Grids
Sept 16, 2015 4:56:24 GMT
Post by jambo1 on Sept 16, 2015 4:56:24 GMT
I think there are quite a few hex based C&C players, including some members here. C&C seems to be having a good run these days.
Ooiittee - I am still thinking about your design idea for adding grids to existing game mats/surfaces. Ideal! Looking at materials.
Jambo - if you are interested, I can email you a downloaded copy of Dale Hurtt's square grid rules for Naps, I got them on the Yahoo grid based forum as a free file. A good starting point. Also has some diagrams attached. Bruce That would be great Bruce, I would like to see them, my e-mail is donniemcgibbon@aol.com
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Grids
Sept 16, 2015 16:59:10 GMT
Post by jambo1 on Sept 16, 2015 16:59:10 GMT
Got them Bruce, many thanks for that, will be perusing them tonight!!
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Grids
Sept 16, 2015 20:20:14 GMT
Post by bruce on Sept 16, 2015 20:20:14 GMT
Thanks, Captain. Just spent some time at their forum and To the Strongest looks very adaptable. Never played ancients, but many tactics and outcomes look similar. Bruce
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Grids
Oct 29, 2015 11:25:12 GMT
via mobile
Post by stevei42 on Oct 29, 2015 11:25:12 GMT
Hi Back in the day we used to use tile spacers to mark out our grids. Paint to blend with your table then disguise if required bu adding a tree or similar scenic item. Gives the added benefit of being able to change the size of square from game to game. And, if you're not too ocd, you can slightly misalign them so the squares arent as readily apparent to the casual observer. Unfortunately they are very expensive ;-) www.diy.com/departments/diall-2mm-tile-spacer-pack-of-500/226923_BQ.prd
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Grids
Oct 29, 2015 16:47:16 GMT
Post by tim on Oct 29, 2015 16:47:16 GMT
Hi Steve and welcome to the forum! Your idea of the tile spacers is good. I am just thinking that as they are flexible in size you could simulate difficult terrain by subdividing a standard sized square into smaller ones IE 1/2 or 1/4 sized squares and not loose the grid integrity.
Tim
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Grids
Oct 29, 2015 19:23:57 GMT
Post by bruce on Oct 29, 2015 19:23:57 GMT
Thanks Steve, these are very cool, never heard of them before. I also thought they could be used as unobtrusive boundary markers to help delineate slopes affecting movement or defense on my rolling grid terrain. Bruce
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Grids
Oct 30, 2015 12:27:53 GMT
Post by Orlog Subedai on Oct 30, 2015 12:27:53 GMT
I can't say that I've ever been a real fan of gridded playing areas, as they -to my mind at least- detract from the visual aspect of the game. However, in saying that I can see the immediate benefit of using tile spacers; being relatively unobtrusive -especially if painted to match the groundwork- is a major plus. The only problem would be to keep them in position during the game. Hmmm, definitely worth thinking about seeing as I have a pack of them lying about somewhere.
Bruce, could you email a copy of those rules to me as well at amsayce@hotmail.co.uk
Thanks.
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Grids
Oct 31, 2015 2:23:33 GMT
Post by bruce on Oct 31, 2015 2:23:33 GMT
No problem Mick, they are on their way. I am picking up some spacers tomorrow to fool around with as well. I have been working out my own grid rules for a couple of months - borrowing all kinds of things to try out, including the Dale Hurtt rules. Writing rules is not as easy as I thought - a great exercise for researching the period and understanding gaming options - its a world of compromise. I have used La Salle, March Attack and lately Blucher in recent years. Also fooled around with Champ d'Honneur by the forum's very own Suchet, a very professional set of rules. I hadn't thought about grids in a long time.
But I was inspired by the Vintage Wargamming site. The grids do not bother me that much as a visual, no more really than troops moving around on thick bases with their own tufts of grass, or printed tabs to record info sticking out of the backs of bases as in Blucher. Its all good. There are always compromises based on personal preferences around appearance and playability - its a great thing about this hobby and I keep learning and changing my mind just because we are all willing to share. Bruce
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Grids
Dec 1, 2015 16:39:49 GMT
Post by oldskirmishman on Dec 1, 2015 16:39:49 GMT
You should offset the "squares" so you don't have issues with diagonal movement
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Grids
Dec 1, 2015 22:10:20 GMT
Post by bruce on Dec 1, 2015 22:10:20 GMT
Good point, skirmishman, this is the traditional problem with squares. Offset is one solution, and some D&D players use movement points and diagonal moves cost more. Some old school rules ignore the difference, too distorted for me.
I want to keep it simple, and not do a lot of math. Using 1 inch squares, I have found that a unit which moves forward 3 squares move nearly the same distance (within about 3/8 in.) diagonally when moving only two squares so that ratio is the rule for me. Cavalry moving nine squares forward move seven diagonally. In any case it is the same for both sides.
The discrepancy is acceptable to me as I feel like squares give me faster play, clarity and consistency around movement, firing, facing for an era of so much linear tactics. But this is still old school style and I feel that the balance between historical accuracy and discrepancies in game mechanics comes down to personal preference for most of us. I am using Neil Thomas rules right now, also clear and relatively simple.
At some point, I could return to the tape measure, other, newer rules. All part of the fun! Bruce
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Grids
Jul 15, 2018 1:56:51 GMT
Post by mike1956 on Jul 15, 2018 1:56:51 GMT
Bruce
Found your thread. I even posted on it. Good photos and ideas.
Mike
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Grids
Jul 22, 2018 9:52:59 GMT
Post by mike1956 on Jul 22, 2018 9:52:59 GMT
Just rec'd a 4' x 3' mat with 7.5cm grids from Big Red Bat Cave, excellent service. Ordered on a Thursday (online from the UK) and it arrived with our morning post the following Thursday in Western Australia. Now with my hex C&C Nap boards, 2 x Chussex Mats and the latest addition, no more need for rulers / tapes. Back to enjoying simple games for fun, as are a lot of guys down the local club. Boys playing with toy soldiers, as I told my doctor the other day.
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Grids
Jul 24, 2018 0:36:00 GMT
Post by bruce on Jul 24, 2018 0:36:00 GMT
Well done! One final thought. Placing small soft items under the mats helps create a rolling countryside even if you have your own hills. Just some small areas of low elevation makes it look like er...a real battlefield. Have a great time Mike, keep us posted., Bruce
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